New House Rules Conversation

So several rules calls have come up in games recently, and some new rules that will hopefully streamline the game some have come up too.

I wanted to talk about them here before just adding them to the House Rules, so people got a heads up before this happens.

We will be changing the Black Fury Tribal Advantage, so that instead of what it is now, a Black Fury will instead be able to Meditate in a Glade/Caern for 15 mins, once per game session, and refill their temporary willpower pool up to max.

The Silver Fang Tribal Advantage will only apply to Leadership, Etiquette, and Intimidation challenges, just like Pure breed does.

Challenges to activate buffs will be waived, when "not under duress" to speed up combat prep. I understand that there are some combos of this that can generate some stupid effects, so understand that if you abuse this rule that is meant to make the game more steamlined for everyone...we will abuse you!

Multiple uses of the same power won't stack on the same target (even if from multiple sources). For example, if 3 people use Distractions on the same person, the highest application will take effect, but the others won't.

Fang Dagger will be added to the House Rules. It is activate per strike (which uses your free activation for the round, and since it's a Gnosis action you can't spend rage in a round you activate it), when activated the damage for the strike becomes aggravated and does 3 additional levels of damage.
This is instead of the doubling effect. A Fang Dagger does one level of damage, gives 2 bonus traits, and is short.

Klaives, a base Klaive is Silver, does 3 Aggravated damage base, gives 3 bonus Traits, and has the Short trait. It is the size of a Short Sword (a knife in the hands of a Crinos Garou though). These effects are always active.
A base Klaive has no other special properties.

Alpha Klaive, is a Silver weapon, does 2 levels of Lethal Damage, Gives 2 bonus Traits, and has the short trait. When activated, it gives a free retest on all Leadership challenges.

Numen/Spirit Familiars, we still haven't made a decision about this, but are leaning towards just throwing out the Spirit Familiar background, since we feel that Numens are suppose to be the Third edition version of that Background. If we do this, then you will be able to earn Numens after character creation, since they will be replacing Spirit Familiars all together.

Another thing that we will be working towards.
Mind Effecting Powers...there are certain abilities that allow for these powers to be resisted better.
Emotional Power...there are certain abilities that allow for these powers to be resisted better.
But what is an "Emotional Power" or "Mind Effecting Power"?
My basic mind set is "Mind Effecting Powers" are those that act on you like Dominate would. In that they force you to act against your will. You may not know it, but you are acting against what you know to be best.
While "Emotion Effecting Powers" will change your emotions in some way, making it so you don't really think you are acting against your will.
Like Fear powers, if you are suddenly very afraid of something, you aren't running from it because you are being forced to, you are running from it cuz you're fucking scared.
Yes both are making you do something you don't want to do necessarily, but the difference is one is making you do something that you know you don't want to do, while the other is making you want to do something, even though initially you didn't want to.

Why split these hairs? Cuz it actually matters an awful lot believe it or not. Now we could leave this up to ST discretion at the time of course, but then we could get different calls at different times, which I know you guys hate...
So we're going to create a list, and put most powers that could fall into one of these categories, into one of these categories.
Now most physical, and Gnosis challenges won't fit into either of course, and won't be included.
But all Social, and Mental Challenges fit into one of those two categories, and many Willpower and Rage challenges can as well (though not all of the latter two do.)
So we will be reviewing EVERY power in the game, and be fitting them where they go.

I can already tell you some basic guidelines and powers that have been thought of.
If it induces Fear or Anger, then it is an emotional power. (Like True Fear, Howl of the Banshee, Song of Rage, etc).
If it causes you to take action against your will, while you are completely aware of it and fighting against it, then it's mind effecting (like Shadows by the Fire Light, Mastery, etc).
Mind Effecting Powers tend to have more dramatic effects that are very straight forward and predictable, while most emotional powers can be very powerful, but unpredictable.

Obedience is a wonderful gray area power. It creates loyalty and obedience in it's victims. Loyalty could certainly be known as a sort of emotion, but it also forces then things very against their will, or does it make them WANT to do those things.
As you can see...we're going to have our hands full trying to classify all these powers.
If you have suggestions on any power post them here, but don't just say "I think Power X is broken and is Mind Effecting". Give actual arguments for why you would think it belongs in one camp or another.

So since regular Klaives are not getting any special powers, are they going to be more common then? I know they are normally fairly rare, but what makes them any different than a silver plated crafted sword as you are suggesting?

The whole Mind Affecting/Emotion Affecting thing. I know we talked about it some the other night, but in regards to things like Shell are you guys going to make a list of powers that something like that does and does not affect? I only ask cuz Shell is also one of those gray areas. It says Mind effects, but the description also says you are withdrawn and mostly emotionless. If you want to leave it up to St discretion that's fine, was just curious.

I really like the idea of changing Numen to spirit Familiar.

HST Jacob wrote:
Challenges to activate buffs will be waived, when "not under duress" to speed up combat prep. I understand that there are some combos of this that can generate some stupid effects, so understand that if you abuse this rule that is meant to make the game more steamlined for everyone...we will abuse you!

Awesome! Thank you!

HST Jacob wrote:
Multiple uses of the same power won't stack on the same target (even if from multiple sources). For example, if 3 people use Distractions on the same person, the highest application will take effect, but the others won't.

Does this include "Trash Magnet"? The garbage is supposed to inhibit movement, not just distract, so...

Thanks!

HST Jacob wrote:
Challenges to activate buffs will be waived, when "not under duress" to speed up combat prep. I understand that there are some combos of this that can generate some stupid effects, so understand that if you abuse this rule that is meant to make the game more steamlined for everyone...we will abuse you!

Sounds good to me. A few questions:
Does this also apply to things like Spirit summoning for those of us that can do it in our sleep?
What does this do to the 2 CoG rites?

HST Jacob wrote:
Numen/Spirit Familiars, we still haven't made a decision about this, but are leaning towards just throwing out the Spirit Familiar background, since we feel that Numens are suppose to be the Third edition version of that Background. If we do this, then you will be able to earn Numens after character creation, since they will be replacing Spirit Familiars all together.

What does this do to the Spirit Familiars already in play?
I do not know the background Numen, can someone explain it to me? (or tell me where to find it)

Brian,

The spirit familar background is from 1st and 2nd ed books.

Numen is in the Players Guide to Garou from 3rd edition. Numen replaced Spirit familiar. It's written to say you get the spirit at birth, but it's more powerful than Spirit Familiar. Numen can give trait bonuses equal to the rating for a gnosis, can use any charm they possess for a gnosis, and could be up to a very powerful Jaggling for 5 points.

Endures the Storms Fury wrote:
Numen is in the Players Guide to Garou from 3rd edition. Numen replaced Spirit familiar. It's written to say you get the spirit at birth, but it's more powerful than Spirit Familiar. Numen can give trait bonuses equal to the rating for a gnosis, can use any charm they possess for a gnosis, and could be up to a very powerful Jaggling for 5 points.

So the Spirit Familiar would just convert into a Numen of the same level ?
Sounds reasonable however I did like having access to the extra 5 gnosis. but the new version sounds nicer.
I guess someone will have to make up a card/sheet for each Numen in play then? (so the player knows what the gifts available are)
Can a player have more then one Numen? (I am under the impression you can only have 1 Spirit Familiar)
Does a player still have Telepathy with the Numen?

Unless I'm misreading the post,

Numens will get converted to Spirit Familiars

@Katie - Distractions was just the example, no powers will stack with themselves. Even if the same power comes from different sources. This is a pretty standard rule in many places. So yes Trash Magnet will not stack with itself, neither will Balor's Gaze, Woadling, Loki's Touch, Call of the Wyld, Falling Touch, Body Wrack, Spirit Ward, etc.

@Brian and Dan - Yeah Dan you are reading it wrong. Numen will completely replace Spirit Familiar.
Here's the issue with all of this, Spirit Familiar is from old editions, and while I don't discount old edition powers entirely, I feel that Numen was meant to replace Spirit Familiar.
Yeah Numen is more powerful in some ways, and less powerful in others. The key though is that Numen is better written. There are alot of vague parts of the way Spirit Familiars are written.
For example, a Spirit Familiar is still a spirit after all...so can it fight for you if you convince it to? Can it use Charms on your behalf? It doesn't come out and say it can, but since it is a Spirit, who has a deep connection to the character that it is bound with, then it would make sense that it would care about the well beings of said character.

Now Numen is pretty well written actually, and translates to Live Action very easily as well. On top of the fact that it's in the 3rd Edition material, while Spirit Familiar isn't, it leads me to believe that Numen was meant to replace Spirit Familiar all together. For some dumb reason that clause about you only being able to get them from birth is in there, but that's silly. A Numen is a relationship, similar to a Spirit Familiar. Relationships can begin at any point as long as the RP is there. Hence if we go through with this chance, PCs will be able to earn Numen after Character Creation. Though they will start out low, and need to be worked up over time and RP.

@Dan - Klaives do have power, it's just built into the stat line, and they don't have any secondary powers.
A Klaive is a short sword. Short Swords do 2 lethal levels of damage, give 2 bonus traits, and have the negative trait short.
You will notice that a Klaive does 3 aggravated levels of damage, give 3 bonus traits, and still have the negative trait short.
So it's power is that it does agg damage, an additional level of damage from normal, and gets an additional bonus trait. So across the board increase in power.
Klaives are rare in our game because we haven't had alot of the tribes that normally have them first off, and secondly...almost no one has even pursued getting one yet. Also since most of the game is low rank it's not appropriate for them to have Klaives yet.
I'm sure over time more Klaives will pop up in the game.

@Brian - Spirit Summoning is not a buff power that only effects yourself. So no the challenge will not be waived. If there is any chance for a negative outcome the challenge will not be waived. This is only for powers that you can just try again to activate with no real negative downside to it. In such cases, if there is no duress or time element involved, we figure why bother throwing senseless chops.

HST Jacob wrote:@Katie - Distractions was just the example, no powers will stack with themselves. Even if the same power comes from different sources. This is a pretty standard rule in many places. So yes Trash Magnet will not stack with itself, neither will Balor's Gaze, Woadling, Loki's Touch, Call of the Wyld, Falling Touch, Body Wrack, Spirit Ward, etc.

Well that sucks =P

I like the idea of covering the bad guys in Mosley garbage. Gotta find somethin' else messy to do now...

Thanks for the clarification =]

It just means that people should diversify.
One power isn't going to win the day all the time.

True, but when the pack has diversified with the multiple applications of a gift in mind, it is upsetting to have that piece of strategy taken away. However, it can hopefully be recouped with more gifts, but that means spending points I already had plans for. So, a little bit of suck. But it's okay. =]

I think that perhaps you don't realize how easy it is to diversify, especially in a pack that has all the auspices covered.
Relying on one gift, that is already pretty easily countered (since the victim just has to spend an action to remove the debuff) is alittle silly imo.
Besides Jess is a Galliard, they have so many good debuffs in their auspice gifts that she should never even get down to Trash Magnet.
All Galliards should open with Call of the Wyld, and then Distractions next. Or now that she's ready for Adren...she'll probably never look at trash magnet again once gifts like Song of Rage, Shadows by the Fire Light, and Eyes of the Cobra hit her sheet.
Also you'll be hitting shit with Whelp Body, Gremlins, Taking the Forgotten, not to mention the fact that you both are going to have Friend in Need, which means gift swapping all over the place. You could give Magnus and Howls Desperate Strength and watch him wreck the world.
Jesus fuck Bone Gnawer support team is fucking broken lol, you have no idea.

*blink blink*

'pparently not. I will do some more reading, to be sure.

Actually, Shortswords only do 1 level of damage with the negative trait you mentioned, if we're looking at Dark Epics. Fencing blades are 3 traits, 1 lethal, and Frail. There're no swords in Laws of the Wild. Broadswords have 3 traits and do 2 and are Heavy, Greatswords have 4 traits and also do 2, but are Clumsy and Heavy.