Attributes vs Temper challenges

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Attributes vs Temper challenges

Post  HST Jacob on Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:12 am

So, these are still an issue.

Our first attempt to fix this was to state that one may double their temper when facing an attribute, but that's not even close to working.

For example, 2 Cliaths are fighting, let's assume that they both have max physicals, and maxed willpower (11 physicals and 5 willpower).
Cliath A, has a way to increase his physical traits by 2, which isn't far fetched. Could be a totem, a fetish, lots of ways.
So Cliath A True Fears Cliath B. With 21 Physicals he is able to overbid the doubled willpower of Cliath B, with practically no extra work involved.
This system is very broken, especially when chain True Fears can easily win a fight.

Now i'm sure everyone who relies on powers like True Fear are going to bitch about this, but it is just unfair how it's built, and you know it deep in your heart even if you don't want to admit it.

So what we are going to start doing is changing Attribute Vs Temper challenges, and just make them Attribute Vs Attribute.

In Live Action vampire, this is done all over the place. Like alot of Presence is Socials Vs Willpower in Table Top, but in Live Action it's all just strait Social Challenges.

Now you can still stack to make your stuff good. You can still stack physicals to true fear, or stack Socials to Castigate (another broke ass Attribute Vs Temper challenge) but now people actually have a snow balls chance in hell to defend.

We will be translating Gifts with these challenges in the House Rules as we update the Gift Section, but for the most part, assume that they will be Attribute Challenges where the defender defends with the same type of traits as the attacker.

For Example: True Fear will now be Physicals VS Physicals.


Let the flaming begin!
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Re: Attributes vs Temper challenges

Post  Consumes The Spirit on Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:19 am

Love it, love it, love it.

What would True Fear be against?
Physicals vs. Physicals?
Physicals vs. Socials?
Physicals vs. Mentals?

Honestly I could see any of the above, just dunno if phys vs. phys makes sense...
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Re: Attributes vs Temper challenges

Post  Endures the Storms Fury on Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:26 am

Terrible idea.

1) First off, some powers are just easier to do or affect the target. If you look in a lot of the Table top rules, you get weird resists no matter what you do, often they don't make sense (like Stamina +3, or just versus an attribute). I don't see why a power should get nerfed when it doesn't need to be. Ok so True Fear is a very effective gift. There's other gifts I would argue are very effective as compared to similar gifts, but we don't see those being effected.

2) In the true fear example, It does not totally lock down a target. You can still act you just can't attack. The only time this would not be the case is in some kind of one on one challenge. Now since the tendency by the ST staff has been to have one uber baddy, it may seem that way, but in a more realistic setting where we face multiple weaker enemies, it's not as deadly. Especially when we need to bring so many people to deal with any one enemy. Rather than making the gift basically pointless (which in my opinion it just becomes a higher end PC or NPC's way to bully weaker individuals). Instead, expand on what an "attack" means. Ok so I can't do something to cause damage. Allow them to use other powers that don't do damage. There ya go, makes it less powerful, but not as bad as the suggested nerf. SOme other powers could be even worse.

3) You could argue that many factors in the LARP system are broken, for instance how resource management game systems are a TERRIBLE way to play a game. There's no reason I should be significantly weakened after a bad series of chops. You could argue the way Spirits run is broken. Insane traits, auto hit powers that you can't defend against that do crazy damage, ridiculous numbers of essence etc etc. It really makes things not enjoyable when you have to rally every player just to hope to take out what we encounter almost every session and then be told "Oh that was a weak one."

4) Why does something get changed when it's not being abused or wrecking every encounter? If that was the case then fine, it needs looked at. I haven't witnessed this in our game. The argument of "Oh it gets abused in other games I play/run" means nothing. WE as a player base are not misusing it.

5) So now when we have to make a Temper test against a trait value (some Gnosis vs 8 traits or something to step sideways for example.) will it becomes a Phys, social, mental challenge? If not then why? The doubling makes that a moot point in almost every case. At 4 of a temper you basically automatically pass on temper tests if you tie for any actions with our current system (activating a fetish, using a gift, stepping sideways). I seems unfair to change one thing and not change the other instances.

6) This brings me back to my argument over Seizing the Edge vs pack tactics kinda thing. Both are basic gifts, each has a cost but one is monumentally better than the other. Seizing lasts for a scene, costs 1 gnosis and improves as you rank up. Pack tactics lasts for one action, costs a willpower, and with the state of the game is only useful if you give the full benefit to a single person. So as I'm blowing willpower like crazy, other people keep their bonus for an entire scene at little cost by comparison. So basically you have one of three choices, leave it as it is, nerf seizing, or boost pack tactics. (where personally I like the idea listed in the Gift Translations a bit better, that the whole pack is up those traits for one action, I'd be happy with that.)

Some gifts are just more powerful or more effective then others. Don't nerf a gift just because its effective.

Onto a side rant of mine: This is my personal opinion, with the state of the game as is, I feel this only hurts the players. Since PVP has been fairly minimal, due to enough deaths to insane NPCs, it will only frustrate players even more. In a lot of situations, I personally feel that something like True Fear might be my only means of survival against the common baddy we go against. I think I've encountered one maybe two baddies that didn't sling 25+ traits or couldn't throw at least 3-5 agg in a single round in combat, or have maxed everything else. If we keep killing all these tricked out death machines, then how the hell are more continuing to crawl out of the wood work?

And if it is the opinion of the STs that their player base isn't playing their characters right, then maybe you should enlighten us on what works or what we can do to not feel helpless all the time. Cuz more than one person is frustrated by it. Maybe since we have some people who have played this game for many years should be teaching the newer people. I know werewolf table top through and through, but I've been given a VERY different idea of how things play based on the LARP stuff. Even I'm still learning what's useful and what's not. Maybe if the knowledgeable folk could write up short primers for breed/tribe/auspice and some pointers for our players, then maybe we would be more effective.

I understand, that in other games played/run things need tuned up cuz of a knowledgeable player base, but we are not that. Most of the players haven't even read the core book beyond what character creation and gift rules. I have seen two instances of crazy characters. I'm one of them because I have felt that if I don't agonize over every expenditure, I'm going to lose this character to the monstrously powerful NPCs we ALWAYS face. Which is why something like True Fear to me is one of the few ways I can really hope to keep the character alive.
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Re: Attributes vs Temper challenges

Post  ST Tom on Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:37 am

Endures the Storms Fury wrote:
"deaths to insane NPCs" "tricked out death machines"
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Re: Attributes vs Temper challenges

Post  Consumes The Spirit on Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:49 am

Player powers are traditionally compared to Players for the sake of balance. There may not be a ton of PVP now, but one day there may be.

There is a difference between "Easier to affect" and "Not able to resist" There is no way to build a character to win ties against True fear before elder against a cliath(in crinos) that I am aware of. That's counting our doubling rule. That's pretty dumb.

If the STs were worried about one power nerfing their Big baddies, and they wanted to nerf it, they'd just add more willpower and it'd be a lot more subtle than this. But I don't think that's the goal here.
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Re: Attributes vs Temper challenges

Post  Endures the Storms Fury on Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:53 am

Then add a few words "use triple targets Will power" or something.

Whatever I don't even care anymore.
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Re: Attributes vs Temper challenges

Post  HST Jacob on Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:36 am

Dan, I hear you on your points, and Agree on some, and not on others. Responses below.

1)There is a difference between being an effective gifts, and being pretty much an automatic success no matter what. True Fear isn't the only power like this, and we will be examining all of them. In table top, you also don't get to add all your physicals together for your rolls, it's just one Attribute category.
Also Willpower isn't limited to rank. Attributes are also way more expensive. All of this helps balance out the roll to be more fair.
Plus, Table Top isn't balanced for PVP. You see alot of Rolls that are against static numbers instead of an opposed roll against your opponent. Vampire Live Action conversions show that WW intended for the game to be PVP, because they translated all those static rolls, to opposed challenges.
For Werewolf, they were lazy and just copy and pasted a bunch of shit.

2)This is a PVP change. It did come up in our game, during the Og/Alan Winters challenge. True Fear just shut Winters down. Most of our balances are for PVP. As Adam pointed out, we could just change the NPCs at will. We could just say they are immune to fear (which in truth, alot of spirits can be pretty easily if we wanted that).
You're also wrong about everything being tricked out. We've run two NPCs since the last CON that your PC could not out trait in every way. One was the Fire Drake, which was actually an NPC from CON and one was Director Grayson, which an Elder and Athro fought.
Outside of that, this current plot has been almost all humans with guns. Since the enemy is Pentex that's appropriate.

You talk about PCs dying "Uber NPCs", Relentless Siege died to humans with shotguns that had silver. He never went Crinos, that's why they outtraited him. The other person in the room went Crinos, and then walked out without a scratch on him cuz they couldn't touch him.
The last PC who died, Jared, effectively died to PVP. IN fact...to your character. Which was fine. You put him down, plot took him out of play after he was down, which he agreed to and actually asked for.

So not seeing the Uber NPCs whacking people you are talking about. At the end of last game you encountered the only "uber" NPCs in this plot and many times the primary villains of plots are meant to be taken on with a group, that's true in almost all storytelling.

3)Yes, Larp is broken, and we can only fix things one step at a time. We tend to notice PVP issues before anything else. This change is for a PVP issue.
I honestly don't care when NPCs die. They are there to challenge you. If they challenge you, then die, then they did their jobs. When I watch a PC be owned without having any recourse at all, then I get alittle more concerned.
Yes you can do other things while True Feared...but the way PVP is set up, the best Defense is a good Offense, in fact, there is almost no defense, it's all offense in PVP. Garou PVP is all Glass Cannons firing at each other.
As for resource management issues, we actually are talking about a fix for that too. Like the possibility of Abilities refreshing every scene instead of the end of the night. I've seen several other games do this and it seemed to better portray the expertise of the PCs than the current system did.

As for Spirits, we've done alot to change that. More to come on this. But again, other than the Fire Drake, and other Glyph guardians, which were meant to be tough, most of the spirits you have fought you've rolled over. The only exception was the first time you encountered the Rage Spiders, and that was over a year ago now, so you were little more than 7/5/3s. So of course they were dangerous then..

4)Why do we need to wait till something is broken in every encounter to change it? We have seen it broken in pvp already though. We foresee more PVP in the immediate future. So we decided to try and fix it. This doesn't actually nerf the gift itself, it just makes it so it's not an automatic win anymore, which nothing should ever be.

5)We will be examining all Temper rules with this, not just True Fear. That was just the easiest first one to fix. Right now you still use Tempers for Temper tests, and double them appropriately, that seems to be working. Also just cuz you win on ties on something doesnt mean you auto win. Its still a 2/3s chance, which means it's still 1/3 chance of failure. The problem comes when you can win on ties, and assure an overbid, for almost no extra work. That means an autowin most of the time.
So this is just a change to Attribute Traits VS Tempers at this time.

6)I'm not going to touch this one right now, because it's an entirely different argument. We will look at it though. Seizing is one of the strongest gifts in the game, no doubt. The difference we talked about before though was that Seizing starts out the suck, and comes into it's own during the athro and elder ranks. Pack Tactics starts out full of win, since you can get 5-6 Leadership pretty easily even at low ranks, but then it becomes a burden later on.
So there is the balancing factor there. Plus stuff that costs Gnosis is just usually better than stuff that costs Willpower, since Gnosis is harder to get and you can't spend Rage in rounds you use it. There are no limiting factors on Willpower.

Again we aren't nerfing the actual Gift, just making the challenge involved not an Auto Win.


If you were facing the monsterous NPCs that you keep talking about, every game, like you seem to imply, then there would be alot more PC death. We have a pretty low level of PC death for a Garou game to be honest with you.
The Cliath Fostern game is a dangerous one. A human with a shotgun with silver Ammo, which you've been fighting alot lately, can be very dangerous still. Of all the NPCs that you've been in scenes with lately Dan, The Fire Drake was the only one that could out trait you physically.
McIntire runs anytime he gets in a physical fight, becuase as you've guessed...he's a coward and a pussy. No secret there. Not all villains need high traits to be dangerous, he's a good example of that.

The last major plot, was ran mostly be 2 STs. We needed to make single enemies that were very powerful, the challenge the game because we couldn't run large groups of smaller enemies. This plot is entirely different. The majority of the enemies you have faced have been Fomori with human traits, or slightly better than human traits....or you've faced each other. Which has actually been alot of this.

So you say we don't need PVP balance, but we do. The last two games have seen more PVP than most of the rest of the games before that combined.

We think people are playing their PCs wrong. The game is just lethal to Cliaths and Fosterns. Thats actually how Werewolf is written in Genre.
The book flat out says, most Garou don't make it to Adren.
Now as a larp with you all being PCs we have to adjust for that. The PCs are the heroes of the story, and we recognize that. Which is why most of you don't die all the time. We try to balance shit to make it hard, but so you'll still win most of the time....which....you are doing.
So apparently we are doing something right.

Do you want to just roll over everything without breaking a sweat? Cuz you already pretty much are Dan. As an Adren, you are already seeing that the game is an entirely different ball field for you now, and we haven't really scaled it up for you yet. We actually aren't planning on it.

The Adren/Athro game is entirely different than the Cliath/Fostern game...and we are still running a Cliath/Fostern game. So enjoy being a giant in the playground.

The only thing lately that I could see frustrating you, is that vampire you fought last game, and that had tie breakers, since like I said it's a villain for later, and balanced for a later date. The Tie Breaker thing is something we also plan to look into, we just haven't gotten around to it yet.

I can tell you though, that your perceptions are off, and about 5 months behind the curve.
The majority of the enemies that the PCs have fought in the current plot, are well trained humans/fomori bidding in the low to mid teens for physical traits with their weapons (which admittedly are good due to the fact they are well funded), and less in other categories. Yes they do 3-4 Agg damage to you guys alot, cuz they have Silver Ammo....though there are some pretty easy ways to minimize the impact of Silver Ammo too.

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Re: Attributes vs Temper challenges

Post  HST Jacob on Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:38 am

Using triple willpower is still just a bandaid on a broke system which is the Attributes VS Tempers problem all together.

You also can't really buff Willpower much.
It's super easy to buff physical traits.

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Re: Attributes vs Temper challenges

Post  HST Jacob on Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:07 am

The point that many in the game don't even know the system yet is understood, but would you rather we just ignore those of you that do know the system since many don't?

We figure that we should try and build the game for both sets of players. For those that don't know the system, these system tweaks won't really affect them much.

For those of you playing on a different level, than these tweaks are meant to try and make the game more balanced for you.

Remember, that NPCs can true fear too, or Castigate, or a plethora of other Attribute VS Temper gifts, and this will balance them to you as well.
In fact, NPCs have True Feared your PC Dan, and you were upset about how broken it was then.


Please try and remember that all these tweaks are attempts to better the system for more enjoyment for everyone, because we know how terrible the system is written.
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Re: Attributes vs Temper challenges

Post  Charles Dailey on Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:30 am

I realize that this might not add to the debate, but the og/alan winters fight had no true fear.

og thought outside the box, he dropped his darkness taht he can see through and flew vertically out of reach. Alan didnt have a ranged weapon, and couldnt see, so he lost, straight up.
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Re: Attributes vs Temper challenges

Post  Endures the Storms Fury on Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:51 pm

So I had this long post that must have gotten eaten by the interwebs. So here's the jist.

First off, I'll apologize for the way that post probably came across. I was very tired and in a bad mood when I wrote it.

I'm willing to accept that my perceptions of things is off. Perhaps with running around as alpha I've only gone along on the mods that had the crazy stuff in it. So I haven't witnessed anything but the heavy hitters. In regard to the Lasombra that monkey stomped my ass, since he's been built up as an end boss type character, my first thoughts were "Oh shit, I'm gonna get my ass kicked, this is awesome!" I like losing occasionally, but it seems every battle I've been in has felt life or death. Especially when we need 10+ players to even have a chance against most of what I've dealt with. There was at least one more crazy enemy, the Chimera. I hardly touched the thing no matter what I did. (half of that was poor chops)

In my mind werewolf has always been about the pack. So what challenges a group of 3-6 is very different from what challenges 10+.

I've also spent some time with other players, both those that still attend and those that came once and haven't come back. The consensus feel was that things are so difficult it feels like an impossible uphill battle all the time. I play games to spend time with my friends so I like my friends to have fun as well. I got defensive cuz I want my friends to enjoy themselves as well. That combined with my lack of sleep and overworked lately.

I still disagree with the change, but I'm just one of many. No one likes getting their stuff nerfed.
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Re: Attributes vs Temper challenges

Post  HST Jacob on Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:01 pm

Well don't think of it as a True Fear nerf, think of it as a Wearing the Bear Shirt buff!

This is just one of the other reasons that True Fear needed nerfed. Even with Wearing the Bear Shirt, True Fear still works more times than it doesn't.
When a gift that is specifically there to protect you from Fear effects, can't even do so, then you know something is wrong with it.
Now, Since everything that True Fears won't also overbid with said true Fear, and may even lose on ties to those with strong physicals traits, Wearing the Bear Shirt should work properly by almost guaranteeing that you won't be hit with said Fear effect.

@Adam, I understand the Physical Vs Physical doesn't make a ton of sense. Intimidation is usually a social thing after all, but if we make it that, then we make it less useful for the Auspice that actually get it, which is Ahroun. I still want it to be a strong Ahroun gift, which it is by keeping it physical which is their main trait type. The goal isn't to make it useless, it's to make it just not quite unbeatable, which it is now.

As for the uphill struggle...I don't know if the people who are worried about this are reading the same books I am...but that's Garou Genre.

Nearly every story, in every book, is an uphill struggle. Most of the stories...nearly all the characters die.
I feel that we pull the genre back from that edge already.


Though I have discovered one of the other issues.
Since we only play once a month, everything we do has to be on full tilt all the time, because we don't have time to get everything done if we don't.

Now we do specifically make sure to set aside time each game to allow the PCs to politic, roleplay with each other, and work on interpersonal relationships.

But, when it comes time for us to do the plot/enemy fighting side of things, we don't often have time to run you guys just going to fight the little stuff, that you would inevitable be doing on a daily basis.
Then, when you say you do, we often don't throw the chops, but let you roll over it because once again...we don't have all the time we would like to devote to it.

All of that aside, I feel that we run a game that is very close to what the books represent. We try and keep the PCs powerlevel, and what they have access to at any particular time accurate to the base genre, and we try to keep the danger level where it should be.

Yeah, it's an uphill struggle most of the time, but you still win...pretty much all the time. Even if you don't win a battle, you've found that eventually you get to come back and win later on.
So since it's obvious that you are probably going to win almost all the time, eventually, do you really want us to make it easier for you?

One of the problems with our first plot, is that we were telling the whole thing with only 2 STs, so we couldn't make groups of weaker enemies, since we just didn't have the man power to represent that. So we needed to make single powerful enemies. Now since we've expanded the staff, we are making plot that involves lots of weaker enemies, but even those weaker enemies have to have SOME teeth...or else you're just playing on the easiest mode, and I don't know about you, but I don't like playing games on easy mode, it get's boring really fast.


Now, on another side of things, if we as a staff start to see the PVP pick up and become the central point of the game, we will back off with the plot and let the PVP happen. If Politics and Player verse Player struggles become consistent enough to sustain the game, we will be all for it.
So don't feel like you don't want to PVP because you're too afraid of the big bad NPCs we will throw at you.
We will adjust to you.


As for the Chimera and it's powerlevel, I'll look into that. Yet when you guys went to fight it for real...once again you beat it without a casualty. I think that goes to show what the perception can be, that something is too powerful, is not exactly what the actuality of the situation is.
If no one even dies, or rages back during an encounter, than can it really be that difficult?

Also if we don't make some of the big bads need 10 or so people, then you will only take 3-5 people, and the other 5 people out of those 10 get to sit back and do nothing.
We need to make sure all 10 are involved in the game.
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Re: Attributes vs Temper challenges

Post  Consumes The Spirit on Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:11 pm

@True fear. I was recommending a Physical vs. social(or even mental) challenge. Ahrouns still get their strength and hell they even get some of their edge back they lose with the change because of Crinos traits...

I don't see a lot of one category Vs. another in Garou but its not unheard of in Vampire.
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Re: Attributes vs Temper challenges

Post  Connell Mercurius on Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:52 pm

Lol, I'm sorry, but I was there for both chimera fights. I thought it was an appropriate challenge. A powerful totem spirit should have killed three cliath, but I think tom let us off easy with one death, and three battle scars. When we came back with an army, we mudhole stomped it, even if we had to whittle it down first.

Just my two cents.
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Re: Attributes vs Temper challenges

Post  HST Jacob on Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:58 pm

In truth, you shouldn't have to fight corrupted totems every day.
The Fire Drake was left over from old plot, so that's the only reason that there were two in such a short time.

That shouldn't be expected to be the average power level of something you are going to fight on a regular basis.
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Re: Attributes vs Temper challenges

Post  Connell Mercurius on Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:24 pm

Honestly, Im not defending that the challenge was tough, but that it was fair. As a group of three competent theurges, there was a lot more we could have done to prepare for that encounter. We had the opportunity to figure out what we were up against, and even summon spirits to help us in combat. We didn't ask questions, or think ahead, so we got beat. 'nuff said, lol.

I think that if we would have prepared more, three theurges might have been able to beat that chimera.
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Re: Attributes vs Temper challenges

Post  Og on Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:31 pm

Just to clarify my side of things, I only ever used True Fear once. It was against Cletus when he was wyrm frenzied, and even though I won all of the chops, it didn't work because he was in wyrm frenzy. I used different gifts to beat Alan Winters.
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Re: Attributes vs Temper challenges

Post  Endures the Storms Fury on Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:31 pm

And to clarify for you Phil, the only reason we mudhole stomped the Chimera was cuz Shines the Brightest got a Command Spirit off. We still had a LOT of essence to go through. Some of us had taken a LOT of damage.
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Re: Attributes vs Temper challenges

Post  Bruce on Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:41 pm

We should totally have some sort of roundtable discussion. Smile
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Re: Attributes vs Temper challenges

Post  Connell Mercurius on Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:02 pm

Yeah dan... I kinda remembered that after I posted, lol.
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Re: Attributes vs Temper challenges

Post  Consumes The Spirit on Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:08 pm

@Brutus, AGREE. I tried to make a suggestion, I guess it was missed. We really should chat about rules, expectations, etc. in person.
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Re: Attributes vs Temper challenges

Post  HST Jacob on Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:34 pm

Spirits are suppose to be harder to fight straight up, because there are so many easy ways for theurges to own them with their powers, like command spirit.
If spirits were easy to beat down all the time, why would you need Theurges and their special powers?

As for roundtable, we've tried to do a roundtable before 2 of our moots so far, and both times people kinda waffled and had no questions.
We even announced that we were doing so before the actual game day, giving people time to think about their questions.
I'm sure we'll have another one sometime again, but doing it before a friday game is just straight out, due to people's work schedules.

And so far i've gotten alot of negative feedback when i've mentioned moving the game to saturdays.
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Re: Attributes vs Temper challenges

Post  Endures the Storms Fury on Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:29 pm

About the round table idea, again I think this becomes an issue of people don't know what to ask. Partly because they don't understand the system real well as well as there are more than one shy person in this group.

The gap between the knowledgeable players and the newer players is pretty big, with only a few people somewhere in the middle (I consider myself in the middle cuz I keep learning new things).
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Re: Attributes vs Temper challenges

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